This Family Cut Taxes 90% by Moving to Europe
Duration
48:59
Captions
1
Language
EN
Published
Premiered May 29, 2023
Description
Become a Client: https://nomadcapitalist.com/apply/ Get our free Weekly Rundown newsletter and be the first to hear about breaking news and offers: https://nomadcapitalist.com/email Join us for the next Nomad Capitalist Live event: https://nomadcapitalist.com/live/ In this eye-opening video, we present a real case study on how to live in Europe with near-zero taxes. If you've ever wondered about the secrets behind minimizing your tax burden while enjoying the perks of living in Europe, then this video is a must-watch. Join us as we delve into the fascinating journey of our client, a successful entrepreneur who has successfully navigated the European tax landscape. We will uncover the strategies, legal loopholes, and expert advice he and his family employed to achieve near-zero taxes in Europe, allowing them to maximize their earnings and live a financially advantageous lifestyle. 00:00 Start 0:15 Leaving the USA with Family 2:28 Where to Move in Europe 7:08 Taxes in Europe 12:47 Challenges 21:50 Our Client's Expectations 30:23 How Long It Takes to Get a Second Passport 39:48 Costs to Get a Second Passport Nomad Capitalist helps clients "go where you're treated best". We are the world's most sought-after firm for offshore tax planning, dual citizenship, and international diversification and asset protection. We use legal and ethical strategies and work exclusively with seven- and eight-figure entrepreneurs and investors. We create and execute holistic, multi-jurisdictional Plans that help clients keep more of their wealth, increase their personal freedom, and protect their families and wealth against threats in their home country. No other firm offers clients access to more potential options to relocate to, bank in, or become a citizen of. Because we do not focus only on one or a handful of countries, we can offer unbiased advice where others can't. Become Our Client: https://nomadcapitalist.com/apply/ Our Website: http://www.nomadcapitalist.com/ About Our Company: https://nomadcapitalist.com/about/ Buy Mr. Henderson’s Book: https://nomadcapitalist.com/book/ DISCLAIMER: The information in this video should not be considered tax, financial, investment, or any kind of professional advice. Only a professional diagnosis of your specific situation can determine which strategies are appropriate for your needs. Nomad Capitalist can and does not provide advice unless/until engaged by you.
Captions (1)
this is a nomad calculus case study I'm
Andrew Henderson we're here with Yona
simchev and I read a pergamette who work
in our strategy team creating holistic
plans for our clients in Arena who works
in the operations team executing those
plans it's good to be with both of you
and we're going to walk through a case
study of a family who lived in the
United States who lived in Florida they
had a couple of key objectives they came
to us with and actually ended up with
some easier strategies than they
imagined lower cost strategies than they
imagine they would be able to take
advantage of when they came in basically
surprised them so walk me through uh
this couple in Florida with their kids
and what they wanted to accomplish
well some of their goals included saving
on taxes moving to Europe and also
getting a second passport okay and so
they were living in Florida like this
low tax state and they came in and said
yeah you know we're saving a little bit
but we want to save more basically right
correct yeah okay so goal number one
reduce our taxes and their business was
what they had an online business so it's
location independent Consulting business
and also they had some YouTube channels
and some Amazon merch Amazon merch right
so one thing that jumps out to me is is
someone who runs a YouTube channel we
don't run ads on our YouTube channel
they did run ads as I understand and so
at YouTube what the US government
actually did a number of years ago was
said if you're running ads and you're
hitting people in the US that's a
royalty tax and that's actually taxed
differently and that's harder to
Offshore I don't think they were aware
of that that is correct I think that is
one fact that a lot of people are not
aware of right and so basically wanting
to the second objective wanting to live
in Europe kind of dovetails with that
because if you have a treaty country
with the US that's actually a little bit
easier for royalty income right yes so
people come in and they often think I
should live in Dubai these people didn't
want to live in Dubai I used to live in
Dubai or some kind of zero tax
jurisdiction but if you have dividends
if you have royalties it's probably
going to do more harm than good right
yeah it's going to be more expensive for
them right so sometimes the quote
unquote higher tax jurisdiction is
actually lower for a number of different
reasons which we'll talk about so number
one save taxes yes Consulting business
slash youtube channel plus some merge
second goal I wanted to live in Europe
yes that is correct tell me more about
that well uh they were kind of
discussing where to go and we opted for
Portugal because it has a favor somewhat
favorable tax exemption on the
non-habitual tax regime and they also
had some claim for citizenship by
dissent in Europe so we'll come back to
that but why do they want to live in
Europe in particular well the lifestyle
suited them they kind of opted for that
it's kind of the best place for their
kids to grow up go to university and
just kind of the environment was
positive for them in terms of a lot of
expert communities right so they wanted
the community they didn't want to make a
big culture shock difference they wanted
they thought Europe would be more
familiar and that the kids will be
better off there right kids are 11 16
and 22. yes so one's already finishing
up University
um yes one's about to go in and they're
saying hey let's just live in Europe and
we can be around our kids send them to
University ostensibly much cheaper than
the US definitely the oldest one wanted
to enroll in a master's course which is
also much cheaper in Europe than it is
in the United States okay so they wanted
to live in Europe so we're doing that
and then the third objective was we want
to have second citizenship why was that
well first of all to have options to
have more freedom to have an option to
just say goodbye to the United States
citizenship
um and then the second one is to just
have more kind of freedom to live in
other places now did they like the
United States was this like hey we'd
love to stick around but the taxes are
too crazy or is it like hey we really
think Europe is better they really
thought Europe was better so they didn't
really like the lifestyle politics in
the United States anymore and they
wanted to kind of go where they were
treated pests in this case they opted
for Europe right and so they're willing
to pay a little tax but they're like we
don't want to be paying 43 percent
that's correct because in Europe they're
not going to pay zero but it's going to
be substantially less than the United
States okay so you mentioned uh so those
are the three goals uh citizenship
living in Europe and lowering taxes and
I think what a lot of people don't
understand uh Arena you can talk to this
is people think hey Europe has these
really high tax rates but they don't
realize how many incentives there are
especially for foreigners come on in and
we'll lower your taxes right yes exactly
I think that in a lot of cases obviously
Europe
sounds great to all the US people right
so there are a lot of access communities
and everything but the mind is there is
that people think that taxes are as big
of a problem as it is currently in the
US or Canada or Australia or somewhere
like that but there's actually like a
lot of
um a lot a lot of like for example for
yellow Dimension nhr non-habitual uh tax
regime in Portugal uh let's mentioned
Switzerland Italy Greece anything so
there are actually a lot of options
Ireland as well yes thank you so there
are actually a lot of options that would
be even better than uh and I mean
anything else really plus it gives you
both it gives you freedom I think it
gives you uh it's obviously again expat
Community it gives you a similar kind of
Lifestyle but it also gives you tax
benefits and Malta Cyprus there are
others as well and if you have again
dividend income royalty income that's
not going to be zeroed out it could
actually be higher in a place like the
UAE you can take advantage of those tax
treaties and Pay Less on that and then
still keep the income tax the income tax
in your business very very low so here's
what basically the key things we
prescribe for them and we'll go through
some of the smaller points as we go
um number one uh we moved the company
overseas and then they were going to
move overseas so given that they wanted
to you said move to Portugal yes that's
a temporary thing for them it sounds
like
well I mean Portugal is a current option
for them but they might move elsewhere
in the future but for the foreseeable
future Portugal it is okay so the
challenge that people don't realize with
Portugal it is not as easy as moving to
the UAE for example how do we
restructure everything that they're
doing
well in terms of the corporate structure
so they had a company in the United
States which they wanted to Offshore and
one thing that a lot of people are not
familiar with is that Europe has
blacklists a blacklisted jurisdictions
uh and the list is quite extensive
especially in Portugal especially
especially in Portugal so the looks can
be quite extensive so we kind of looked
into what would be kind of some of the
best options for them and we opted for
Malta as kind of a the best jurisdiction
in their situation so Malta has this
structure where you have to like set up
like it's generally a multi-corporate
structure you'd have to have like one
company that's operating one company
that's just just you have to it's a
different more complicated structure
both because malt is more complicated
with kind of their pay a high tax rate
and then we refund almost all of it but
Portugal's also complicated more so than
Italy or Ireland or agrees with the
other ones that Arena mentioned because
of how they
um they have this larger Blacklist of if
you're going to live in Portugal it's
harder to do your tax planning as I know
and then you have to have a lower
there's a smaller number of companies
you can have and that's definitely true
I mean they're not habitual tax regime
kind of sounds really good but it's
actually
only a couple
of foreign sourced income
um foreign Source income is actually
exempt
um so it has to really be structured
carefully and in addition to that there
are only a couple of options that can
really be kind of tax favorable in terms
of Corporations and corporate attacks so
uh for example they could have chosen
um let's say Ireland for example which
the tax rate there is now 15 corporate
tax but they wanted to go a bit low
still 12 and a half on smaller companies
like like ours right okay uh right so
they could have and I think Malta I
think Ireland if you're not going to
live in Ireland even if you are going to
live in Ireland you probably don't want
to so I have to have your entire
operation Island one thing people don't
realize is you may not want to have your
entire company anywhere but for their
case Okay Malta works for Portugal
there's other options around there's
Bulgaria there's different options uh
Malta is a bit more confusing but they
also as I understand had to kind of
prove hey we're working in Portugal but
other people are working somewhere else
because Portugal's kind of like well
who's doing the work where
correct that's one of the other issues
that the people are often not aware of
that is permanent establishment rules um
namely in Portugal they are kind of
strict they are similar to other
European countries where you cannot
actually be employed by that company so
you can be an owner of your company but
not be employed and get a salary because
Portugal would see that as if they are
if the company is having a permanent
establishment right right and so people
don't realize hey if they would have
stayed in the United States instead of
their company somewhere else that
company would still be taxed to the
United States it's not that easy just to
set up the company in Panama or
something so what's the what's going to
be their net tax rate all in all in this
business as they leave the U.S they're
still U.S citizens that does follow them
what's the tax rate as U.S
as United States they are paying around
1.1 million right now in the United
States they're paying 1.1 million on on
6 million in revenue and how much in
profit
uh three million or something yeah like
three million okay what's what's that
going to go down to now that they're in
Portugal with this whole structure
well Malta is only essentially it's
going to be only five percent tax
um so 150 000 on the malta side so yeah
essentially uh they will save around 800
um because they're still gonna have to
pay something a little bit extra to the
U.S correct so it's gonna be a lot less
but I think we said 750 or 800 000 in
savings a chunk of what's left goes to
the US and a chunk of what's goes to
Malta so there's like a minimum they
have to pay in the US given their
situation and then they'll and then that
gets credited multiple but they pay in
Malta gets credited correct yeah so
they're saving 750 Grand a year yes and
every 750 Grand counts as we know
um now they chose to move to Portugal so
how are they getting into Portugal so
because they actually wanted to live in
Portugal spend time there full time uh
we opted for the self-sufficient Visa in
Portugal and which requires them to show
proof of income and they have to
actually spend time we make three
million dollars a year right yeah so
different than the golden beats people
say people here oh golden Visa is going
away in Portugal other countries but if
you wanted to live there and I've seen
this in my own situation if you actually
want to live in a country making a big
investment isn't always required that is
correct yeah although I mean in that
case you have to commit your time in
that country in order to maintain the
residence so it's always either money or
time money or time is the issue and then
of course when you spend the time in
most countries but especially in Europe
now you are in the Texas and so that's
why we need the different planning I
think we had like three different tax
memoranda people don't often realize we
need documents from proper tax lawyers
that says like here's how you do it
here's the steps right yeah that's true
I mean people sometimes when they do it
on their own they do it without the
memos and then when they encounter some
trouble or some issues they really don't
have anything to fall back on to so they
don't have any documents that could
prove a tax Authority wrong so they kind
of create addition we don't do any
planning in advance basically so there's
like well you screwed up and and people
get into we had one guy what was it like
he he was had his pay in Spain 600 000
Euros or something but not being
prepared so that's kind of the price if
not not planning in advance especially
in Europe correct and and memos gonna
can be somewhat expensive however on a
long-term basis they're definitely worth
it like that's your insurance on saving
750 000 you're saying they're going to
spend at least I mean probably the rest
of their lives there it sounds like but
if it's five years I mean that's
almost four million dollars plus
whatever they reinvest that into correct
and as time progresses they're probably
going to grow their business even more
so it's going to be even more in tax
savings so we've got a family who wants
to move in Europe and they're going to
take advantage of a low tax regime
um I would say now they liked Portugal I
guess they liked the vibe there a lot of
expats are there I've said if you make
more than 2 million euros in profit
there's a better deal somewhere else
than Portugal right uh because you have
that you have that uh bigger Blacklist
that restricts your options of how you
could pay less so over 2 million euros
you're making a lifestyle decision to
live in Portugal yeah
um and so it's a self-sufficient Visa as
U.S citizens correct then they're doing
all the tax planning so they're living
in one they're moving from one country
moving to another have a company in
another
uh all the employees are coming with
them or how does that work they actually
don't have employees only contractors
yeah and just
because that is the kiss of death
sometimes no unfortunately no okay and
so what were the challenges that we saw
once this came to your desk on executing
setting up this this multi-part
corporate structure in Europe
getting that set up because because
you're the general contractor basically
between all these different people in
three different countries that are
involved how many people were there in
total like five or six five five okay so
what are the challenges that you dealt
with yes absolutely so let's start maybe
with uh I would say let's start with the
immigration part of it yeah with the
obviously uh self-sufficient Visa
um the tricky part is that we all know
that Portuguese authorities are I mean
that Portugal is not the best country we
all know yeah everybody if you're
reading some guy's blog or something who
doesn't do this every day he's like oh
this Portugal's the best place of all
the cool kids where we're going to
Portugal that you know this is what
happened this is why you don't want to
follow all the cool kids but yes we know
they're a little little sluggish yes
let's say a little
um but yes absolutely so uh the the
issue I think came where obviously if uh
if you ever heard something about the
self-sufficient Visa the process at all
starts at the embassy the Embassy Park
is the easy one right because it's
actually it's not in Portugal right I
still remember four years ago when we
were some guy was in Australia or
something and the embassy the Portuguese
Embassy they would put you on hold for
like two hours we literally hired an
intern for one client and half of their
day for like a month was sitting at hold
trying to get someone just to answer the
blood like we just want to get an
appointment and we had to hide like we
were like like hire an extra person like
no joke but yeah I think in the US
they're not they're not quite as
affectionate so I think that part came
came quite easy obviously there were a
couple of documents to to have prepared
and and so on which is which was not
that difficult obviously because they're
they were still in the US the trickest
part was when they actually came to
Portugal to get the Biometrics
appointments that was the trickiest part
because now you're well dealing with
with the with the bureaucracy and
everything there
um so the I would say that the trickest
part when obviously and I will talk
about that as well a bit later when we
move on with the immigration part is
um the documents collection everybody
thinks it's very easy
um and we go across that so many times
that they say well why do you need this
long you know um whether you need a
month this is a question that a lot of
Americans are asking like I get it by
the way I you know you see me I get I
get frustrated another country it's easy
to get frustrated when you go into some
other country when things don't work
quite the same the payoff is you're
saving 750 000 a year you're also
gonna reduce your cost of living by a
lot but Americans are like why do you
need this that is kind of a thing that
we do like what is this important for
it's like listen just do you want to
save 750 Grand or not
yes and I think that that might be the
issue you actually need to see an end
goal to see aha okay this paid off for
some people some people do not really
understand what what are some of the
benefits they will get at the end but it
is bureaucracy it's no doubt sometimes
it's kind of stupid but obviously we'll
get to at the end how this family
they're they're loving it and and
they're going to reinvest that 750 and
they're gonna make more they're gonna
you know save money at a university save
money and cost of living eat healthier
food
et cetera Etc so the first challenge was
collecting documents getting Embassy
appointments yes and of course before
that just to add that obviously since
one of their um kids was was actually 22
years old we had to enroll them into
University before the actual appointment
every country is different in terms of
like who qualifies as a dependent
exactly so
um in Portugal actually obviously the
younger younger children were actually
completely financially dependent on on
them so they were not the problem with
going uh justice dependence but with
with obviously with the with the with
the kid that was actually 22 years old
uh we have to enroll in him in the
University before the actual
um Visa is approved and uh obviously we
help them with with all of that we
actually providing with the list of the
universities that would fit their his
needs what he wanted obviously there is
a language barrier as well so obviously
a lot of uh people want the English
speaking there are a lot of schools in
Europe that are in English correct
English curriculum right yes yeah
exactly
um so obviously we we were working with
them on on on finding the best
university for for them
um and afterwards we help them with the
enrollment part and and so on
um so again just to come back that the
most trickiest part after that was
actually in Portugal now uh for the main
applicant usually the get getting the
Visa especially in Portugal is not that
much of an issue but for the rest it's
easy to get approved yes but the process
almost requires someone
unless you want to if you're making
three million dollars a year you do not
want to be babysitting this process
exactly yes
um so when you go to Portugal you go you
go and take your take your metrics right
um and everything is okay you know they
say well okay you know we now have the
paperwork ready that's it uh two months
later uh they're still nothing and I
think that we all seen if you didn't you
know there was I mean the Internet is
just full of it right that it's becoming
a bigger issue now yes yes I think now
more than ever and you know when you go
there you see oh I've been waiting for
my application for I don't know how long
you need someone to sit on them is what
you're saying exactly someone needs to
be there making the call almost like on
an ongoing basis the lawyers in this
country one thing I see with these
lawyers they're all like we we've found
over the last Dozen Years the the best
ones that they could find but they still
talking too much like it shouldn't be a
problem and I'm like it's going to be a
problem unless you manage it and so if
I'm making three million I don't want to
manage it the lawyer is not going to
manage it for me so that's where you're
coming in and being like let's let's get
it moving here exactly I think that they
probably they probably they all know us
here know us they're actually in
Portugal because we're just we are
actually calling uh following up every
single day to ask for an update so when
they have someone sitting on their back
let's say it like that yeah they're like
oh okay how much faster
do they tell you if you know it how much
faster is it getting done potentially by
sitting on them versus just the lawyers
like Hey Okay servers are up
they may be approximately like let's say
that with the lawyers it takes
approximately two months to actually get
your card I mean starting your hand with
us I would say maybe half a month but a
couple weeks yeah so you're saving four
to six weeks maybe something like that
yes but I think that they're sick and
tired of us there and then they're
trying just to get the obviously card
residency cards issued as soon as
possible and yeah and then for the
self-sufficient they have to rent a
property so walk me through how they did
that with yes Christopher and his people
absolutely so obviously before the
embassy actually you actually need to
get to get the rental agreements before
or purchase yes or purchase of course
yes uh before the actual um the actual
appointment at the embassy now they
wanted to purchase something as well but
they wanted to actually see the
properties and then decide what they
want
um and for the 22 year old their 20 year
old child they also wanted to have
something rented out for him so this
would work perfectly so they'll get it
for theirs and then eventually they'll
move out and buy something yes we do buy
properties site on scene for people I've
done that yes but I think especially in
Europe you want to go and like
experience it make sure you're buying in
the right neighborhood you like it
agreed and they will literally you know
travel there for Dubai Metro so why not
just take that opportunity to have you
know the mentor to have the tour
um there but beforehand the renting part
we did completely obviously remotely and
our real estate team sent them you know
obviously it goes on asking for the
wishes asking for some goals what they
want and our real estate team came back
with you know with the with some options
for them how much it cost what was the
rental price uh I think it was
approximately around 1 500 euros is it
for a house it was a bigger apartment
but I think that it has approximately it
had approximately five bedrooms or so so
it was quite big but if you look at it
compared to the US or anywhere else it's
cheap right especially now with
inflation when everything right that
would be one of the cheapest ones
um but we also recognize that the
interesting interesting part as well
that was so try to organize the virtual
property to it for them which was very
nice and that's how actually they got to
decide on which apartment they want to
rent obviously after that the department
they are actually physically in Portugal
we did as well they kind of on the
ground tour right
um and uh and yes they decided to
purchase a house there and that's what
actually we either did so here's the
good news is golden Visa is gone now but
even if you had the golden Visa you're
going to have to put out 350 for 500
whatever before you know you don't have
to make that Embassy appointment you
don't have to rent the property but to
save that amount of investment when you
don't entirely know where to put it this
is what you've got to take these extra
steps and so it's not good to have the
support and sorry let's not forget about
the timeline in terms of Portugal golden
days it's become a problem yeah so the
self-sufficient is faster now right so
okay so they set up their structure in
Europe they're paying five percent plus
they're topping up a couple extra
percentage points in the US and so they
said Hey listen we want to have and
there's actually kind of a bonus
passport as I understand got them they
want second citizenship tell me again
what they expected to gain from that
well forward
it's going to have more options freedom
for what Freedom just to travel around
for him from the United States also so
not to be stuck in one country obviously
when with covet everything that happened
people are kind of worried that it might
happen again as well kind of restriction
of movement
um then also they wanted additional
options for their kids not just for
themselves and they just wanted to have
um kind of options to exit the United
States they wanted to be able to leave
right so if their if your goal is I want
to live in Europe for five years save a
bunch of money in taxes as an adventure
come back
with those income tax savings you could
do that 3.75 million plus whatever they
make on that you know it's not a bad
thing for an adventure save money in
your kid's school you could I mean maybe
you get Portuguese citizenship and that
if you're there five six years you can
get a passport that way but they wanted
the opportunity because they knew they
wanted to leave full time at least one
of them just to get the second passport
and be able to sever the U.S tie Now is
it going to say that they actually were
kind of committed to not coming back to
the United States for the foreseeable
future so they also kind of discuss
maybe potentially both of them severing
ties with the United States but later on
kind of opted for only one of them to do
that it's very rare I've always told
people why did why do both if you have a
married couple and they're both America
they're all Americans right why do
now no one had any other citizenships
except for the ones we found right yeah
okay
you don't generally need to both get out
now if one of them gets out that U.S
Top-Up tax on Malta will no longer apply
correct that is correct so basically
they're going to save an extra what 100
and something thousand a year if one of
them leaves the owner okay additional
5.5 because and sometimes like with a
fan with a with a married couple it's
like oh she was born in Canada so she's
the Canadian so it's easier for her to
renounce he's just American like what's
he gonna be right so do they want
citizenship by investment is that what
they came asking for well they were open
to a lot of options they weren't really
stuck on one or the other uh what they
didn't want to do is just wait for a
number of years to get a pass but they
wanted to get it in a matter of a year
maximum year and a half just at least
one so here's what I think like
renouncing your citizenship isn't really
all about taxes because
you know especially if you've got a
family like your kids want to go back to
the U.S if the kids aren't renouncing
and we determine one of the spouses
won't renounce so one person's
renouncing depending on what passport
they have they may or may and they're
able to easily go back to the U.S but if
you make three million dollars they're
paying a hundred and some thousand like
it's not again if you really love the US
you're just gonna pay the hundred and
some thousand yeah the issue is the
complexity with this multi-part
corporate structure and is you're in all
these different places it becomes more
expensive to file that re-tax return
there's bank accounts there's F there's
a lot of things to do and that's correct
and also in addition to that there are
there's certain income that the United
States will exempt if you're living
outside of the United States but the
issue that the Portugal will not exempt
that that income so for example with the
United States you could exempt your
salary but Portugal will tax it um
Portugal would exam dividends but the
United States will tax those dividends
so it's kind of a tax neutral situation
in a way in that uh personal income tax
regard so if you're an American you
still have some restrictions also people
ask like you know I got a couple of P
editors around the world where we you
know have business interests and it was
I mean that was kind of a side effect of
being out of the U.S system where now
you have more control over your
company's funds that you don't have as
an American so even if the taxes aren't
as low you're kind of restricted as to
what you can do with that money outside
of the business correct which if you
just are piling up cash as they are it's
not as effective okay so they came and
you prescribe Saint Kitts and Nevis
citizenship it's one of the five it
gives them if they ever wanted to move
there it's a tax-free country but that's
not going to help them living in
Portugal or the US why send kids and why
for everybody well uh first of all they
wanted options for their kids as well so
they wanted them to be included in every
kind of step of the plan especially
citizenship at the time where they when
they came to us I think it's had this
amazing option where they had the
reduced price of 150 000 US dollars for
a family up to four people and then for
an additional fifth person it's 160. 10
grand Egypt yeah correct that's a good
little when you get when we get these
really big families we have like
families of 11 or something and same
kids is it's a cheaper for each person
yeah that was the kind of option at that
time so and also Saint Kitts is one of
the best passports in the Caribbean area
yeah in terms of visa-free countries
um so Anno tax Haven and it's crypto
friendly so a lot of those things kind
of factored in um in our deciding that
that was the best option for them are
they in crypto also they're dabbling a
bit in crypto that's one thing that yeah
is U.S citizens would be an issue yeah
not really much freely from that in
Portugal okay so they show Saint Kitts
and Nevis and they all wanted to do it
because sometimes you'll have a case
where it's just like all right I'm the
dad I want to renounce but you can't
renounce for your kids right and you
can't most you shouldn't have your wife
renounce or vice versa so sometimes it's
like Hey listen I'm the only one who
wants it but you're saying hey it's the
same price now you'll say we have to
collect all the documents for Saint
Kitts and that's for five people that's
a that's a schlep well yeah
um we would I think it would be easier
if it was only him but you do pay extra
per person on the processing side but
not the donation side yes yes that's
true um and plus on this on the other
side yes it's more of course complicated
to collect documents for five different
people but the main applicant is always
the one that you're focusing the most of
the most because you really need to
provide all the proof of funds documents
where is the money coming from and so on
so it's it's it's much or less I
wouldn't call it the same of course not
but that's a very hard process really in
collecting the documents and if you had
anyone that went through the process I
mean they would say that it's awful and
I've been through and the first time I
ever tried it
um well the second time I ever tried it
I just gave up and said I'm too busy
running my business to be bothered with
this and that's why I developed our team
to be like let's focus on westerners and
like let's have a notary in Miami let's
have people in Miami like let's have
someone who comes to your house if
possible and fingerprints like how to
make it easy because
um I've seen multiple people try it and
just fall flat on their face like again
if you're if you're a Westerner you're
not used to this level of bureaucracy
yes exactly and I think that especially
something that is well
um let me say that for example
um we need to order the FBI report the
validity of the FBI report for example
it's Titans Instagram I've always said
you're threading the needle where you
need this document you got to order it
uh and you and you really have to thread
the needle and timing sometimes or if
someone's just handling it on their own
it's like I got this but oh now that's
gone and ordering a peer report getting
the fingerprints taken the apple style
the federal office side currency takes
approximately a month with the shipping
time and with everything you are left
with half a month you got a couple weeks
where you got to be ready to go yes and
if if that if that is if the shopping
list is delayed if something happens and
of course I mean with us it never
happened thankfully but if you're doing
it on your own well there are other
documents that would expire in the
meantime so you have to do it all over
again I I've sat there with a stack of
documents this like I can tell you yes
so this family of five 160 000 donation
they obviously paid some extra fees with
us it's just hey here's the entire fee
for us to manage the process and then
that includes government processing fees
passport issuance fees kind of a one
chunk so you kind of know what you're
getting into it bothers me I think that
most companies don't offer it that way
it's like hey here's our fee it's like I
don't care what your fee is I care what
I'm paying and especially with the
documents part I think that we all know
you you might not have an idea of how
much that will cost but the documents
were fine I think I spent 15 000 last
time exactly and can you imagine the
price for five people that's the one
common misconception that we get in the
first part of the process where people
don't really understand how complex that
is and what does that involve and they
often kind of underestimate that part
and plus if you have five again you have
five different people here everyone born
in a different state and you have to
apostle that document in each different
state I mean if you technically if you
drive all through the U.S yeah that
wouldn't be that one if you're Canadian
it's even more expensive as I understand
yes they've got their own weird
requirements yeah but
it's one of those things where
everything is easy and nothing is easy I
mean you're if you're an American with a
clean criminal record and you haven't
been sued by 100 people I mean you're
probably going to be approved and your
money's clean of course like you're
going to be improved by these Caribbean
passports but the documents that you
need to get are difficult so they got
how long did it take to get the passport
because I hear stories 18 months some of
these people that aren't not with us but
no thankfully not uh we took
approximately two months to collect all
the documents and after that it took
them three months to get the final
approval so all in all five months since
they started and then it takes a couple
weeks to print out an issue a passport
ah that that was all together with that
remote because keep in mind you can be a
citizen of a country and not have a
passport people understand that sickits
is one of the best ones with that and
that are they really yeah I mean apart
from being the best passport out of the
five it really has the I mean the
processing time is really good it's
really they're more efficient it's a
little more expensive yes but the
travel's a little better it's like a
total tax-free versus like Antigua and
they're a little bit more less
restrictive so okay so now the plan was
and then they haven't done it yet but
they're because I think people sometimes
want to get the passport again they're
willing to overpay a little bit on the
tax side for a while just to kind of say
let me travel
are they going to switch the residents
over to the Saint Kitts passport in
Portugal once they get it because they
applaud As Americans but they can flip
it yes they actually
with with the uh with the US Passport
because obviously because because if you
want to get started you don't want to
waste you're doing it in parallel
exactly but after that after you get the
residency with US Passport it's very
easy to after that switch it I mean
where is it for us obviously we took the
connections with everything just just
switch it to the same kids passport now
they obviously didn't know whether they
was just switching to this think it's
for obviously
yes for that for him it would be 100 it
will switch it however for the rest of
the family they were still thinking
about it but since since in the future
there may be a possibility for you know
the buy for example announcing like
could they imagine that was their idea
at the beginning I think being on the
safe side it's easier to just switch for
for all of them and the question is
sometimes like if one renounces and one
doesn't it's like are you gonna have
that one non-us person own more of the
assets that's a personal conversation in
your relationship of like do I want my
spouse to own all this stuff like if
you're one us and one non-us and you're
living in Portugal and you have Bitcoin
that's going up you know from a tax
perspective much better
for the non-us person to own it but then
the UA what's the trust Factor right
yeah I mean the trust is always
important there are whether among
spouses or business partners obviously
for tax purposes we can always kind of
go back to what is the best option but
again at the end it kind of comes down
to the trust so they got that password
that's pretty easy so now they have the
freedom to get out they have the freedom
to for the person who for the spouse
that owns the business and actually even
if they just don't own the business
um as partners us and non-us they get
some relief on that U.S Top-Up tax so uh
you know they could still you could
still do that 50 50. just but there's
but there's still some of the
restrictions yeah so it depends on how
far you want to go with it in terms of
how do you switch it but so now they
have that passport he's in the process
of exploring just making sure he feels
comfortable traveling as a saint kid
citizen plans to renounce simplify the
life but we Define they actually qualify
for an even better passport which
eliminates the need for even some of the
residence work you did long term term
yeah when talking about citizenship so
one of the kind of most common things
and one questions that we like to ask is
whether you have ancestors from other
countries and in their case they did
have namely the husband had from on the
French side so his grandmother was
French and he had the option of
obtaining the French passport now that
is not only an excellent passport in
terms of visa-free travel but also that
would kind of eliminate for him at least
and some of his children the need for
having a self-sufficient Visa in
Portugal right so if I'm a citizen of an
EU country France is one of those if I'm
French I can just move to Portugal it's
not quite as
it's quite quite the same as saying I'm
moving from California to Florida but
you can kind of think of it that way if
you're an American right uh and so I
don't have to really I just show up and
go through the registration process so
they got this self-sufficient Visa in
Portugal again we're doing things in
parallel they want to get moving they
want to go and do it now but when it
comes time to renew
they won't really have to actually do
that they'll just say hey now we're here
as as French right correct they don't
need to renew the residence in Portugal
they can simply register the EU citizens
at that point and long term it doesn't
even have to be Portugal it can be any
EU they can move around to any of the
other ones and and some of the tax
incentives come and go in some of these
countries I mean you can go to Italy you
get 15 years you've got to Greece you
get 15 years you gotta you know but uh
one of the misconceptions there is
his wife is not necessarily entitled to
that one right away correct because
she's not French correct he is and the
kids therefore passed down how does that
work well on on the one end uh she can
get kind of go with him as a spouse as a
spouse of any new citizen common law
partner um correct yeah on a family
reunification and on the other side I
believe she has the option of getting
the passport in a couple of years even
if she's not living there he's in France
I think Italy's one of those ones where
if you register properly we I know you
do this on your side you can register
and there's a system within like three
or four years later without even having
to live in that country just being
married to the person you can get the
passport right it's a little tricky as I
know it is it is a bit tricky but we've
had it for a couple times yeah including
for some some gay couples also yeah in
France keep coming up yeah um and I
think that just to jump in here that um
I believe that when you Google it let's
say the even if the client was aware uh
if you Google it and you see ah okay so
I have a French grandmother
French citizenship by the Santa is by
the ancestry line is only is only
applicable with the first line so
meaningful yes your parent and that's
why they thought that they're not
eligible now the good side here is that
uh the grandmother and obviously their
parent was still alive so the parent
could actually get correct citizenship
and after the parent gets it then it's
the the
um obviously the client then it's the
wife then it's the kids and voila before
the whole family actually gets the gets
the password right how now how how long
is that going to take for like the
parent to get it because it's longer
than citizenship by investment generally
that's why someone who's like if they
can save a hundred thousand a year they
can make their lives easier they'll
often go with that citizenship by
investment first while they're waiting
again in parallel how long is that
that's why actually we decided to
firstly get the obviously censorship
investment in same kids but as well to
continue to kind of simultaneously
actually work on this as well now it it
I would take it I would say it takes a
couple of years unfortunately but for
parent and then the kid yes but compared
to for example Italy or anything like
that it's faster it's much faster than
for example again the Italy the tricky
part is the documentation now we had
cases where we managed to find for
example the birth certificate but the
birth certificate was from uh I don't
know 9020s or so and it was handwritten
it was just handwritten on a piece
people don't realize for citizenship by
the semi I spent nine years now and
every year I collect some other document
and it's like oh we don't like that one
and I kind of eventually just kind of
figured out this is not going to work
we've had people where they go and the
the town hall burnt down or something
with their paper records there's a lot
of work that goes into this there's a
lot of work and that's why not always
but oftentimes yes yes but in in
obviously
um that's why we for example have uh the
separate team that works on this because
it's just citizenship by itself yes
because it takes a lot of work and it
can take if you do not do it constantly
it takes years to just collect the dogs
that's what I dealt with yeah exactly I
mean we did call like Gary Indiana but
anyway so so he's gonna get in a couple
years he'll be French when's the
self-sufficient Visa renew two years so
he might just renew that as hey we're
still self-sufficient we're still saying
kids citizens or Americans whatever they
want to do but then when the next
renewal comes yeah you know what we're
French yeah or four of us are and then
here's the the spouse and the French
person and plus just to add that if you
want to uh honestly to if you're a U.S
citizen already and you want to get
residency in Portugal in this case you
would need a property well they already
have the property from the D7 Visa that
they've previously previously got
right it's a plus plus kind of situation
no no additional work there the other
the other thing that's kind of cool that
you were mentioning was
once he and he's the one expatriating
from the us in the future right if he
expatriates as a Saint Kitts and Nevis
citizen you would have to go and apply
for a Visa generally where you live so
there may be a little easier to deal
with in Lisbon than they would be in in
Barbados which is the embassy for uh for
Saint Kitts but
I mean you're still going to the Embassy
you're still filling out a form you're
still going to be interviewed whereas so
in the gap between expatriating as a
Saint Kitts Citizen and later becoming
French so long as he's not rejected to
try and go to the U.S then he can get
the French passport and skip that whole
Embassy process so for someone who wants
to perhaps go back to the US now they
could make some law in the future saying
if you left and you're a rich guy I mean
to hell with all of you we don't care
where you're from but as of now he would
be able just to hang out for a couple
years and then say hello I'm French
with all the other French people going
there yeah I mean he wasn't really stuck
on going back to the United States right
at the moment yeah so he was willing to
wait a couple of years which was
honestly the best option because if as I
said if he did apply for a Visa got
rejected he would have a much harder
time or impossible to to get back on a
French passport skip this so they took
him you said five months for saying kids
which I think is pretty good because I
do see people I've interviewed people
who work with other firms it takes them
a year and a half sometimes collecting
paperwork
but he could have done the malta program
multi-citizenship is kind of a hybrid
citizenship by investment they like to
call it that you'd take about an extra
year right correct 16 17 18 months yeah
they could have done that and that would
have cost for a family of five what 1.15
1.2 million dollars something like that
so they would have been out
what an extra I don't call it an extra
million dollars all in and that would
have served as everything but basically
by us finding this French passport they
saved you know an exchange for him
waiting to go to the us an extra year or
two he's going to save a million dollars
he could have afforded the million
dollars but why would you just to speed
things up a year or two in most cases
pay the million dollars yeah
that's true I mean uh as long as it's
kind of cost efficient in terms of
citizenship by Descent Why not do it
um and also kind of it will help them
achieve his goals
um in the same way that Malta passport
would and French is like it's really in
your blood you probably feel better
about it and it's perhaps taken just a
wee bit more seriously right correct I
mean it's an even kind of more
legitimate reason to why you kind of
renounced your U.S citizenship it might
be multi-citizens can go to the United
States multi-citizens can live anywhere
in the European Union it's the same
situation and that's something that if
you're just in such a hurry but that's
what we found out was I mean hey why
would you even consider doing that in
your particular case when you're happy
to spend a little bit of extra money for
that one year that your U.S then you'll
renounce the same kids then you'll spend
a year or two waiting for your parent
and then for you to get French then your
kids get it and now you're all pretty
well covered and now you're going to
save the hassle of renewing
maybe the second time around on the
self-sufficient in Portugal yeah I mean
just investing a bit more time and kind
of entrusting somebody to handle the
process they get to save the the million
dollars what else uh came up with so uh
talk to me about when they moved you
said there were some challenges in terms
of like they didn't really want asset
protection they were happy to kind of
keep their money even I think they kept
some of the money in the U.S which is
fine
um but what were some of the issues on
banking that they dealt with uh so when
it comes to banking obviously I think
that the they kept they decided to keep
some actually the us but U.S accounts
um because I mean the US has a pretty
pretty good banking system I mean not
the recent with the recent things that
happened but uh but generally yes now
the living in living in Portugal we
obviously decided to open one of the
bank account to Portugal so that they
can actually pay bills for the house yes
per day do they use this is a
misconception people think I'm moving to
Portugal If I have 10 million dollars in
the bank or something I'm moving it all
to Portugal yeah that's not true no no
of course not there as well I
it was our recommendation to kind of
movement to keep money and this is what
we call planting Flags right you have to
figure out what's the best Portugal
maybe maybe the best place to live for
the lifestyle if you by the way they can
still get that Portugal passport they
lived there five or six years and they
learn Portuguese they could be French
Portuguese Saint Kitts and then four out
of five could be American right yeah
that's true so they can have that that
but I mean and that that's a strategy
people could have used but they you know
if you're if you can get French faster
why not but but people just think like I
have to to put everything in one basket
exactly and don't ever do that uh trust
me I mean
it plus when you look at the work that
we actually that you actually need to
put in to open a bank account somewhere
yeah it's a lot in Europe it's a lot
more yeah especially at the high levels
like if I go to UBS in Switzerland if I
go to all the fancy banks in Monaco to
get residents I mean they put you
through the ringer so I think it's often
better in Europe to get a transactional
account and just set that up there and
then if you're not American now you can
go and you can open up like the best
account in Singapore and that's going to
be a lot more secure than some Bank in
Portugal yeah so specifically like I
don't live in Portugal like their banks
are falling apart great you're not
banking there exactly that's true and
plus just imagine it's not just about
the documents it's about the forms it's
this month this Saturday I remember my
stacked when I did when I went through
the process in Portugal I mean it must
have been I think you did it yeah three
years ago it's like 35 pages I didn't
know what the hell half these questions
meant I'm like what do they want to know
and that's why we're here that's why
we're there you know to to actually
guide you through the process and to
fill it out for you because if you just
start doing that it's oh my God it's
just a hassle yeah uh this is the part
that no one likes to talk about is the
bureaucracy and the form filling and I
could that I I personally back in 2016
gave up on one process so we have a
family of five living in the United
States decided to move to Portugal they
liked the lifestyle not total tax
savings partially due to the U.S
citizenship being maintained at least
temporarily partially due to Portugal
does have some restrictions uh they're
going to basically cut their tax
exposure by about 80 percent and then
later it'll be cut by closer to ninety
percent once the U.S is out of the
picture for one person living in
Portugal working towards citizenship at
the same time they got residents just to
get the ball rolling getting the French
citizenship underway through dissent uh
company is outside of Portugal banking's
outside of Portugal what happened with
the royalties from this YouTube channel
so first of all they were not even aware
that there is a tax on that withholding
tax and the first thing obviously that
they thought about is kind of putting
the channel and the kind of Amazon
account in on the company and the
company can be the owner of it however
for us on our side we kind of saw that
that was actually not but not the ideal
way to go because even though Malta and
the United States have a tax treaty the
tax rate can be complex it can be deemed
as a treaty shopping so the best option
for them was uh to be in in the personal
name of the husband who renounces U.S
citizenship
as a resident of Portugal as a resident
of Portugal correct and I was able to
work to reduce that right so
um if you sell a book like I have a book
for example on Amazon I was able to uh
based on a tax residence that I already
had lower that I think to zero
um but if you if you're just again if
you're just living in Dubai or something
which is again another place everyone's
kind of talking about Dubai now that's
great for many people but
um you know certain things are just not
going to work out there because if you
have income
you know hey you're getting YouTube ads
from Americans
they're tagging that they're becoming
more aggressive correct I mean and that
tax in the united in UAE uh is 30
percent
great and that's true if I have a
dividend stock portfolio yeah I mean
it's not only us so Canada it's also
Australia sometimes so even if you have
Australian I don't know dividends or
yeah U.S Canadian Australian French
dividends we went through this German
dividend it's all much lower if you live
in Europe so if you're all your incomes
coming from running a YouTube channel or
selling a book on Amazon or maybe the
merch uh or or dividend income capital
gains are different but the dividends
and the royalties are a problem yeah in
that case for for those people UAE
definitely wouldn't work unless they
want to pay 30 tax right so that's not
really it's going to be a worse deal for
you if you want to leave the U.S and
you're fine I mean you should go where
you want to go but I wouldn't you know
you think you're going to a tax-free
place so that's what they uh did and you
think that's uh it turned out to be a
pretty good result everyone's feeling
good now yes good
so that's a walk through one family and
people say oh you can't do it with a
family right uh you have to do and
they're really enjoying life in Portugal
now
they are they're pretty happy
um obviously they're saving a lot of
money in taxes reinvesting that money
and overall I think there is also a plan
for the kids to enroll in the University
soon yes yes absolutely uh at the
beginning just about that yes they liked
Portugal but they also said okay let's
test it out let's see if we can actually
live there and they're still living
there so yeah and I I mean again uh if
there's other programs in Europe what's
cool about having whether it's through
Malta if you don't have the Descent
whether it's through France or whatever
else descent program you have is there
are countries that are harder to move to
than others as a third country National
right so if people want someone wanted
to move to like the Czech Republic I
mean that's really they kind of cut back
a lot of their residence options but if
you're an EU member citizen now that's
open to you and so some of those
countries also have tax incentives so
they have lots of opportunities there
yeah I mean they have options obviously
they don't know habitual tax regime is
for 10 years so they would actually have
to go if they don't want to pay full tax
in Portugal so at that point after 10
years kind of they have the European
options wide open and they can choose
from those whether it's Portuguese
citizenship French whatever uh yeah I
want to uh Anna Rena thank you so
another success story that I think shows
uh just how intricate this can be
there's probably opportunities out there
that you're not aware that you qualify
for there are probably pitfalls that
perhaps have been oversimplified by
folks who are trying to sell you on a
particular strategy and so if you can
leverage those two together if you can
have someone help you with the process
of the bureaucracy the form filling
making sure things are moving smoothly
you'll get the result a lot faster
you'll potentially save money you don't
need to spend and not buy shiny objects
you don't need and you'll end up getting
things that make your life easier in the
end